What should it be?

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What should it be?

Post  AdrianHunter on Tue Mar 23, 2010 9:32 am

This is a good time to try and get some accord on what we should try to achieve.

For my money we should atempt to cover all capped internationals who fell in the war - now the discussion can begin as this is not as cut and dried as it may sound!

Again for me about 1000-1500 words is a nice legth of article - Some players wil be difficult to get to this others will be dificult to prune down!

Personally I would like to cover ALL Internationals, we have members in Wales, Ireland, New Zealand, France & America and the society is about the world of rugby

Lets knock this around and see what we get

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WW1 Rugby Internationals

Post  patrickcasey on Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:14 am

I think the criteria should be someone who has played for their country and died in WW1.
The definition of having died in WW1 is being listed by the Commonwealth and War Graves Commission.
There will be a couple of additions which I think we should consider. Internationals who have been listed in previous publications but who are not listed by CWGC. I know of 2 Irish interanationals listed in history of irish rugby books but not listed by CWGC. Upon investigation they did die from the effects of the war and when I speak to people they can't understand why the CWGC have not included them So I'm contacting the CWGC to see what their criteria is.
I believe that all countries should be included. Although I think there may be a challenge in finding out US players to die in WW1.
Something I don't think we should include are pictures of graves or cemeteries.
I think we should foucs on the people rather than the matches they played. I think it would be more interesting.
Yes have a limit on the number of words per person. Although not being too strict.
We should try and get a photo of every player. Maybe two if we can find one in rugby kit and another in uniform.


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Re: What should it be?

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:07 am

I agree with the criteria suggested thus far. I think to do anything other than this would lead to too many gray areas.

I am also in agreement that this should include every country that lost internationals in The Great War. The list on wikipedia is pretty good and there is also a list on the GWF from the book 'Rugby Football Internationals Roll of Honour', published shortly after the war and compiled by some eminent rugby journalists of the time.

I am not entirely sure about a complete veto on graves and cemeteries. I think it might be quite useful if there are several in once cemetery or on one memorial and, of course, there may be some with private memorials. Though, I agree that it should focus on their respective lives.

Whilst it may not be achievable to get a shot in rugby kit and military uniform for each and every individual I think it should be at least regarded as desirable.

As for word limits; I think it will be necessary to have a limit on each entry so as to curtail the entries for the likes of Mobbs and Poulton. However, there may well be a shortfall that accumulates owing to limited information regarding the lesser known players that could be redistributed accordingly.

Whilst not wanting to jump the gun or tread on people's toes I would like the opportunity to write about Harry Alexander and Alexander Todd. Todd was in my antecedent regiment, The Norfolk Regiment, his regimental tie is my own too. The two of them won the first caps together and I think it would make for interesting research. I am happy to take on others as well, but would really like to have a crack at these two chaps.

Pip pip,

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Whats an International

Post  patrickcasey on Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:40 am

Maybe we should also define what an international player is
exclude
B International players
service players
players selected but who didn't play
anything but full international players

One question. Do we include those that played for Anglo touring sides (that went on to become known as the Britis Lions) that didn't play for their country?

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Re: What should it be?

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:48 am

I would advocate just the 'official' international teams. The touring sides were not fully representative and, as such, I think it would cloud the waters a little. Though, it may be a possible fall back if there is a shortfall in the word count.

My thoughts would be those players who represented their respective country's Rugby Union 1st XV and were rewarded with an official cap for doing so.
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Re: What should it be?

Post  AdrianHunter on Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:49 pm

There are some good points being made!

I agree with the 'Lions' uncapped by their countries - I have nothing against their inclusion per se and certainly would not wish to disrespect their memories but we will have to draw lines somewhere.

Space will probably become an issue with regards to photos of cemetaries etc as well, but this is something that we can look at a bit further down the line!

Tim, I will pencil you in for Harry Alexander and Alexander Todd and email whatever I have about them to hopefully assist your efforts!

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Re: What should it be?

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Thu Mar 25, 2010 7:37 am

Having perused the Great War Forum earlier today it seems that there was an American International team that played the All Blacks in 1913. They were mainly Californians as Union was, at this time, the main code of football played in the state. This would explain why a Balliol XV team shot I recently acquired contains two Rhodes Scholars fro California (one of whom owned the photograph in question).

It may require a little work to track down the line up and any respective ends that these chaps could have come to in the war, but, they should be included.

I will have a peruse through the NY Times archive to see if anything comes up.

Pip pip,

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Topic Streams

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:38 am

Is it worth beginning topic specific threads i.e. per country?

Just a thought, so that we do not lose things in unwealdy threads.

Pip pip,

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Country Topis Threads

Post  patrickcasey on Fri Mar 26, 2010 9:48 am

Yes

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Re: What should it be?

Post  AdrianHunter on Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:42 pm

This seems like a good idea to me,

Lets do it Exclamation

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Re: What should it be?

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Fri Mar 26, 2010 2:55 pm

I have created a thread for each country, please do add another if I have missed any.

Patrick, if we can transfer any discussion regarding Gard and Noble to the US thread from now on.

Pip pip,

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Representative Sides

Post  patrickcasey on Wed Mar 31, 2010 5:51 am

Just a thought
I know Germany didn't exist as an international side until 1927 but in 1904 Olympics Frankfurt represented Germany and lost the final to France. Now does that count as an International side and did any of the players die in WW1. Also in those finals Moseley represented England. Also what about Cornwall in the 1908 Olympics.

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Re: What should it be?

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:09 am

Interesting thought. I would suggest yes they do class as international sides, they are, afterall representatives. How we would track them down I am not at all sure. I can have a word with a few friends who still play for Frankfurt to see if they have any records, though it is a long shot.

On an aside, I used to regularly play against Frankfurt when I was playing in Germany, they have very strong links, even sharing their colours, with Blackheath.
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Representative Sides

Post  patrickcasey on Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:19 am

The players are listed at
http://www.rugbyfootballhistory.com/olympics.htm
Is there a German version of the CWGC?

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Re: What should it be?

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:57 am

Marvellous.

Yes, the Volksbund Deutsche Kriegsgräberfürsorge are a similar organisation.

They have an online search facility at:

http://www.volksbund.de/graebersuche/content_suche.asp

This would be fascinating for me as I lived just outside Frankfurt for 2 years, playing rugby for Darmstadt.
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VDK Search facility

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:02 am

It would seem that the search may be a little more involved than with the CWGC.

I am happy to write to them and ask for a block return as I can speak German.
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Re: What should it be?

Post  patrickcasey on Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:04 am

Please do as you probably speak German and I don't.
I will check out the Moseley and Cornwall through the CWGC

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Re: What should it be?

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:44 am

Good, good.

I have emailed the VDK to request they do a search on the list. I will let you know once I hear anything.
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Re: What should it be?

Post  Tim Fox-Godden on Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:04 am



A photo from wikipedia of the 1900 Frankfurt team who represented Germany.
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Re: What should it be?

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